Carl Sagan called it over 30 years ago. And the saddest thing is that too many under 30 don’t even know what the fuck he was talking about. For the very reasons he was talking about. #WASF

https://stzl.ink/9wjruk

@tauon
:)

@elasticsoul
Either your research was conducted fifty years ago, or you are just a very bad researcher.

Since your definition of "sociopath" is so wildly at odds with current consensus in the field, I'm going to hazard a guess that the latter is true, and that your "research" amounted cherry-picking evidence to suit an opinion that "evil sociopaths rule the world"

I'm a psychopath rather than a sociopath, and have little interest in helping you learn how to do a basic lit review

@elasticsoul
And those psychologists and researchers are telling you that many #sociopaths ARE curable, and are the way they are because of childhood trauma or abuse.

All you are doing at this point is spreading more stigma and heaping more harm on already harmed people. Saying you are "not interested in a therapeutic pathway" for anyone at all is a pretty dick move.

The fact that you are making up your own definition for "sociopath" doesn't make that any better.

@elasticsoul
Like, what does M or DT help you explain that psychopathy doesn't? Does dx help fashion a therapeutic pathway that dx with psychopathy doesn't?

At that point the value of the term is questionable, and unclear where it takes you.

Refining Hare however has promise. Split psychopathy and sociopathy, and the diagnostic instruments are pretty reliable, each has strong face validity, and each predicts a specific treatment. Sociopaths can be treated, and psychopathy can be mitigated

@elasticsoul
It's about theoretical and clinical value as a term, and construct validity.

Sociopathy as a subgroup of Hare's model of psychopathy is neat, works theoretically, and allows the development of diagnostic criteria and treatment options. The deeper you go, the more sociopathy looks like something different to psychopathy, but that's another topic

Machiavellianism is too fuzzy, overlaps with psychopathy, and has unclear clinical use. DT inherits that, plus has its own probs

@LeftistLawyer

I've not heard that argument before.

@cy

@Scoll
I've heard TFBOJ is coming out as paperback next year.

Just watched the first episode of Dexter. It seemed very familiar. The murder scene was a bit Hollywood, but enjoyable. I've never felt a "pressure" to kill or do other violent or risky things, but a lot of sociopaths have reported that.

Seeing a weapon and feeling an urge, yep, that's familiar. Same kind of urge of knowing that I could push someone in front of a train. Otoh maybe that's the same thing

You felt seen in Dexter?

@elasticsoul Then you have a definition of sociopathy that is substantially different to current researchor theoretical thinking.

That's fine, and you are completely within your rights to define sociopathy differently to how others describe it as environmentally acquired factor-2 or secondary psychopathy.

I may look for your book, but to be frank, I see both "dark triad" and "Machiavellianism" as purely literary constructs with very scant evidence or theoretical underpinnings.

@cy

Lefgist argued this well.

I'd offer another point.

1. APD is a diagnostic code and only partially maps to psychopathy/sociopathy, and also mixes primary vs secondary together.
2. A psychopath is much more likely to do something cruel on their own volition, BUT, also much less likely to obey orders to be cruel. Sociopaths tend to lose their shit and be cruel either way

@LeftistLawyer

@LeftistLawyer

Right, and when a psychopatic SYSTEM is pushing the. Hence Milgram. People followed orders to do what they thought were horrific things, but only so long as a representative of the system was there, but also only because a horrific system required them to do those things

@cy

@LeftistLawyer

Right, but those tend to be psychopaths, rather than sociopaths (in current fad of terminology)
A LOT of execs are psychopaths bc controlling, planning, and lack of empathy or guilt, and callous makes for success in systems that value that.

Likewise, a LOT of death row and max security prisoners are sociopaths, because lack of empathy or guilt, and callous, plus explosive behavior and low planning or control gets you a criminal record fast.

You and I differ on the two

@cy

@cy

It's a confusing mess of terminology and not a settled matter yet, but the current thinking is that Hare was right about there being two kinds of psychopathy. Factor-1 aka Primary psychopathy are born, neurodivergent, and controlled. Factor-2 aka Secondary psychopathy are made by environment and explosive

Recently, they started resolving terminology and calling Factor-1 "psychopaths" and Factor-2 "sociopaths"

Hence sociopaths tend to be badly damaged and abused people

@LeftistLawyer

@Scoll
Good question, because on the whole, the literature and Hollywood just make cartoon versions.

I have not, but I've heard Dexter is a reasonable depiction

The character "Villanelle" in "Killing Eve" is a pretty good depiction of a sociopath. "Joy" in the book "The First Book of Joy" is amusing and creepy, but a good picture of a psychopath. M.E. Thomas wrote about being sociopath, as did Patric Gagne. Mark Freestone is a neuroscientist who found out HE is a psychopath and wrote a book

@elasticsoul
Rich people.
Especially those who have family legacy wealth.

Sociopaths are seldom rich, because they tend to go explosive and burn out too soon.

@Susan60

Thanks, that answers my question. :)

@MelissaBearTrix @neurodiversity

@lizzard
A lot of boosterism for neurodivergence is great and helpful. But most also is done with a very sanitised aperture of who they are talking about. In their mind, they are almost completely talking about rather "endearing" modes, (see image)

But psychopaths and sociopaths and narcissists are also neurodivergent.

So, I just want to remind them that the category includes a few "black sheep" that they shouldn't ignore

@cy

I'd like you to consider that this is mainly greed + rule following, not sociopathy.

Most of the sociopathy you are pointing at is just greedy and cowardly weasels surfing a system that is inherently sociopathic. The US especially, has a socioeconomic culture that MAKES people act like psychopaths just by doing their job.

There was some great research showing how MBA courses worsened ethics in students. We have a psychopath production line

@LeftistLawyer

@LeftistLawyer

Not to be a nitpicker, but you are more describing psychopathy than sociopathy.

Sociopaths would tend to lose their shit. High levels of control over self and others is the hallmark of psychopathy, the explosive acts are the mark of the sociopath.

Of course this is still mainly psychobabble because we still don’t really have a firm grip on wtf is going on with people like me

@cy

Hey #neurodivergence boosters.

Just keep in mind that psychopaths like me are also #neurodivergent, and our neurodivergence is precisely what makes us hazardous. So maybe boost with care and specificity?