@arrrg I think that might have been true 25 years ago. But mostly because the Democrats of that era legitimately believed in the "Democracy machine spits out justice" framework. I don't think that's true of most democrats today. Maybe the really shilly ones like Sinema.

The thing about the democrats is they're a mixed bag. Some are really garbage people. Others are downright heroic (Like Cori Bush). And many have too much faith in market based solutions.

@CosmicTrigger yeah, cringe.

Edit

LMAO, all the women are wearing denim. Like it's the uniform now. The denim Army is coming for you

@jake2 You know, that and the totalitarianism. The complete betrayal of any ideal of worker autonomy. The gulags. The regimented "live to work" culture. The imperialism.

@LiberalEd ....No.

@karakam I would absolutely dodge the draft. These people have my undying respect.

@entwininglife @YusufToropov and I think that's fair. If you're taking a principled stance that is based on careful consideration, then that is absolutely valid.

@eris Did you junt make that up?

@entwininglife @YusufToropov Perhaps not as much as you might hope. I see the issue as morally complex. I understand the average liberal's desire to avoid another trump presidency and consider it to be valid.

I also understand the average leftist's stance against genocide and consider it to be correct.

What I hate, more than anything else, is shallow analysis.

What this looks like from liberals is claims of some grand 4D chess game that Biden/<insert democrat here> is playing and how he has to support Israel/renege on student debt relief/capitulate to the Right because of some nebulous greater good that never seems to materialize.

From leftists, it's, "I oppose <obviously immoral thing the Democrats have done>. And I'm so morally pure that I will not go within a hundred miles of any candidate who does such things." All while ignoring the simple truth that <obviously immoral thing> will happen ten times as much if the Republicans take power. I am a socialist (and more) but I consider most online leftist politics to be about preening and posturing and not about positive social change.

For most leftists I've met - maybe not yourself but certainly the vast majority that I've encountered - opposition to Biden's support for Israel is not a principled stance against genocide. It is a post-hoc justification to do what they were already going to do anyway. They made up their minds years ago that they will never vote for a Democrat, and they will latch onto any excuse to justify that position.

Ideally, liberals and leftists would each recognize the other's valid concerns and work together to create a strategy that prevents a Republican presidency while simultaneously compelling the democrats to revise their policies. (Which can be done. The uncommitted vote in Michigan demonstrated as much).

But this will not happen. Because liberals are campists who will never criticize the Democrats or hold them to account no matter how low they sink. And leftists are more concerned with looking good than with doing good.

So, I leave you to the quagmire. You're welcome to unfollow me now. Or stick around if you prefer. I'm always happy to be proved wrong.

@aphyr I'm so sorry.

@poofbirb what a bleak (albeit true) thought on which to start my day!

@rbreich While I agree that investing in workers, education and healthcare are undeniably good things, I think we need to question the limits of how far economies can grow on a finite planet. And whether other economic models would be more conducive to long-term stability.

@YusufToropov @entwininglife wait, hold on. At no point did Jim say that Biden was launching the attacks. Funding them and supplying the weapons that are used to carry out this genocide makes him complicit. You don't have to be the one who physically pushes the launch button to bear responsibility.

Frankly, I've grown tired of hearing liberals use the words "live in the real world" to justify unspeakable evil.

@YusufToropov @entwininglife I don't want to speak for the original poster, but I suspect that he is aware of that. I don't think he's trying to mislead people. I think he's saying that choosing not to veto the UN resolution is not sufficient in the face of a genocide.

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@julieofthespirits I guess I need to buy a copy of Fizzy Fuzzy Big and Buzzy to test this theory.

@lumecolca I agree.

@beka_valentine Good choice! That was a fun show though less enjoyable in retrospect after Sorbo became a vocal fundamentalist.

@lumecolca hit me!

@beka_valentine I think that when liberals justify war crimes, it's often to protect their own egos. And their sense that they play for the good team.

Oh! I just noticed your handle! Can I be Trance Gemini? (She was my favourite)

@flawed I think the question here is a little too generic though I understand the point you're getting at. I think the issue here is that principles are rarely universally applicable and are more general guidelines.