Sept. 2023 Interview with Daniel Kepl
Back in the fall of 2023, right after the release of my second solo album with Navona, I got the opportunity to sit down with longtime American conductor, arts administrator, and music/theater/dance critic, Daniel Kepl, and talk with him about my album, SHARDS.
Unfortunately, the audio in that video interview was extremely unbalanced and distorted, so I took some time to try and clean it up, to make it as listenable as possible. Soā¦ that edited video is now here, below, ready for your viewing pleasure (complete with chapter breaks, if youād prefer to jump around)!
While the pops and crackles and background noises are mostly gone, sometimes the words are still a little garbly, so Iāve embedded captions in the video and am providing a full transcript, for those who would prefer to read the discussion. If you would like to see the original unedited video, you can do that here.
Dan Keplās Review Highlights
The high points of Dan Keplās praise, as stated in the video below.
About the Album:
[SHARDS is] a wonderful album, very interesting and very accessible, if I may say. Itās absolutely a magnificent recording of simply superb musicā¦ This music is just simply gorgeous. You use instruments in the most magical way.
This is music that should be heard a lot moreā¦itās just good, solid, wonderful music-making. Itāsā¦a very important CD youāve got.
About āAyre of Grievancesā:
Itās absolutely gorgeous. Tense, beautifully crafted, thoroughly contemporarily classical. tonalities are altogether satisfying throughout the piece. The balancing and everything is wonderful in terms of your compositional skills.
About āDodecaFunkyā:
I want to tell everybody out there thatās looking for a repertoire, this is a beauty. This is a recital beauty. I think I can say itās fun. Itās wonderful. Itās just a delicious piece, itās aggressive in its funky way. Itās wonderful to the max. Should be on programming all over the place. This is irresistible. Audiences would love it, I think.
About āOf Roses and Liliesā:
Itās a beauty; a rich tapestry of sound and a highly romantic tonal aesthetic. ā¦this should go off the shelf and into performance and rehearsal. A flowing, lovely, entirely tonal journey. The soprano recorder is charming. Your writing is absolutely first-class. You handle transitions of mood with smooth aplomb. The piece soars with beauty. Your compositional savvy and skill are beyond question.
About āThe Oracleā:
Once in a while, I really want to play [a track of] an album, uh, for other peopleā¦you know, over a dinner or something. This is one of them. What an amazing chamber piece. Wonderful transitional writing; compositional savvy is top notch. The piece is a wonderful narrative. Itās complex. This piece is quite a journey.
About āWabi-Sabiā:
The construct is fascinating and sensible to the intellectā¦quite a narrativeā¦wonderful quartet writing.
About āNevermoreā:
An absolutely gorgeous, wonderful, magnificent Sonata for viola and pianoā¦so American. ā¦a fascinating piano introduction that really nails the interest immediately because it hints at mysteries, then itās followed by the violaās intensely Poe-ish colors and temperament. Itās a beauty, again, of narrative imagination, a wonderful piece of writing for viola. It is virtuosic, everything a violist looks for in a recital piece. There are romantic bits in here, some hair-raising twilight zone intervals between notes, if that makes any sense, thrilling, kooky, mysterious, as was the man. It has a tremendous connection to America and American history and American literature. It is a beautiful sonata and it sounds so beautiful. The writing is so gorgeous.
[For Annabelle Lee] I call it magical writing. Itās exceptionally sensitive.
The Tell-Tale Heart: the intro, sufficiently terrifying. Very imaginative character development. Itās exactly creepy enough to fit the narrative, because it is that narrative, the pulsing, the clickingā¦the floorboardsā¦Then the beginning of real paranoia. Shades of the shower scene in Psycho ā Brava! Disturbingly deliberate ending.
About āThe Dark Glass Sinfoniaā:
ā¦wonderful piece for orchestra, āThe Dark Glass Sinfonia,ā gives me shivers, but itās wonderful.
Lovely wind section workā¦nicely orchestrated. Itās brilliant and wonderful and very accessibleā¦a beautiful, beautiful orchestral piece. Definitely descriptive, martial, perfectly accessible.
Sept. 2023 Interview with Daniel Kepl (Edited, with Captions)
Full [Edited] Interview Transcript
D: Iām chatting with composer Sarah Wallin Huff and weāre going to talk about your 2023 Navona CD release. Thank you, Parma. Thank you, Navona. Thank you, all of you wonderful people out there that put this, these kind of packages together. Just a quick aside about Navona, including everything that we need as critics, really somewhat truncated, makes perfect sense, but up on a website. And very few other companies do this. I just think itās fabulous.
Iāve seen your interview, or Iāve read your interview, I should say, with Parma. And weāre going to talk about your 2023 Navona CD release of Contemporary Classical Chamber Works and an album for diverse instrumental combinations. Anyway, the CD is called Shards. Do not run away in the night and be afraid. Itās a wonderful album of very interesting and very accessible, if I may say so, and I think itās perfectly OK to say so.
Here, just a sampling: Ayre of Grievances, for viola, violin, flute, lovely. The flute I wondered about. Those are pretty heavy instruments and the balancing and everything is wonderful in terms of your compositional skills.
DodecaFunky, let me say that once more. DodecaFunky, for piano, and it is cuteā¦ oh, did I miss one?
S: DodecaFunky.
D: Anyway, itās cute. I think I can say itās fun. Itās wonderful. And itās a wonderful, very fascinating piano piece. Audiences would love it, I think.
āOf Roses and Lilies.ā This oneās a little complex for soprano, piano, soprano recorder. Nice colors. Nice. English horn, very interesting. And womenās chorus. I mean, not since Holst have I heard womenās chorus used in this way.
So, Wabi-Sabi, itās in three movements. Juventas, the new music ensemble performs it. This is a string quartet, so four players of the Juventas ensemble. I hope Iām pronouncing that right since I live in California. Three movements: Emergence, Evolution, Entropy. Very, very interesting. And maybe even kind of the heart of who you might be. I donāt know. Iām just guessing.
The next piece, Nevermore for viola and piano, an absolutely gorgeous, wonderful, three-movement sonata for viola and piano. The movements: The Raven, Annabelle Lee, The Tell-Tale Heart. And I love Poe, what a genius, what a genius. So glad you have included this wonderful, wonderful piece for viola and piano. And I mean by that, again, your compositional skills, the way you use these, didnāt you play viola? I thought I that read somewhere. Were you a violist?
S: I double on viola. I feel more comfortable on violin, but I can pick up a viola if I need it.
D: Okay. So you got all that stuff, you know, under your fingernails, so to say.
And then the last piece, wonderful piece for orchestra, The Dark Glass Sinfonia, gives me shivers, but itās wonderful. And with a little subtype, if Iām reading it correctly: āWe see through a glass darkly.ā Wonderful piece, performed by wonderful people, while you really say it right out, right, and I just want to deal with this a little bit before I get to where you know, Iām going.
We all know people with autism and what I have found in my experience with people, and you know, autism is here, there, everywhere in various variations. Youāre going to speak to it, I think in a bit, but the people that I have known with autism, some people have had troubles, others have been really, really talented, clever, and innovative. Autism is not a deficit. Okay.
S: Yeah. Itās a difference.
D: Itās a difference. Thank you. Thatās better. Okay. Because I too, like most of, especially like with dyslexia, in the seventies, we all thought people with dyslexia were just lazy. Just didnāt want to do a job. Well, they couldnāt help it. They couldnāt read. Everything was backwards. My, my oldest nephew, uh, is dyslexic. So I just want everybody to understandā¦
And, and where are you in the autism spectrum? Can I ask that question?
S: Sure.
D: Of course, youāre clearly under great control. You have mastered the magic of autism.
S: Yeah. Well, whatās funny about that is Iāve actually only just in the past year, really got confirmation. Um, Iām still donāt have, yeah, I still donāt have an official diagnosis because thatās a whole other bag of worms for adult diagnosis and it costs thousands of dollars. And, uh, some doctors still donāt believe that women have it. Um, so, but just taking several screening tests, um, Iāve taken about five of the clinical screening tests and they all point very highly to autism. Um, and thinking about my experiences growing up, it really makes a lot of sense.
D: Thatās what I was going to ask you next. You must have known, you know, that something was different.
S: Well, yeah. I, I thought something was alwaysā¦
D: Can you give an example or two, you know, when you were a little kid. What I remember is the kids that Iāve known have various symptoms of autism.
S: Definitely. Um, emotional dysregulation, um, is still difficult where, well, and for me, because I kind of triggered emotional response to things like, um, thereās a famous phrase that āyou donāt have enough spoonsā, but the phrase means basically like, I only have so many ways of coping with life and when Iām out of those ways, I have to take a nap. I have to, I have to go to the corner for a second. And for different people, thereās different levels of that.
And growing up with a family who expected me to be normal. Um, I got really good at masking. I got really good at holding it all in, but then Iād get home and just. Like, um, I didnāt want to do my homework. I didnāt want to eat. I didnāt want to do anything except just sit there after school. Um, unfortunately I had to keep pushing through. Um, and so I just got used to doing that, hiding who I really was, you know?
D: Um, as you know, we talked, Iām very openly gay andā¦what weāre getting to, the bottom line is you have to be who you are. To keep these things secret or to try and work around who you are is exhausting, as you said. And just mentally, you know, exactly.
S: Iāve actually, I did actually get a diagnosis like 15 years ago for anxiety disorder and what Iāve discovered since then is that it is a part of the autism masking, just, I had been masking for 40 years. And so, um, that just built up a lot of anxiety in me for everything, you know? Um, but now that Iām just past year, starting to learn who I am and learn what my triggers are.
Um, I am very sensitive to sound, ironically enough, um, disorganized sound, I really have a hard time handling with, but music is organized sounds. So for me, my brain likes it, you know? Um, but yeah, so Iām just learning a lot more about myself and how my brain works and that itās okay that my brain has trouble where other people seem to have things worked out, you know? And thatās okay.
D: You see, if you will, with your brain, things that we donāt, and so on. So, you know, I mean, thatās the beauty of all, for all of us. Uh, itās the tremendous beauty of diversity.
Umā¦ Letās talk about Ancients. This is psycho-messaging to our brains. I mean, give me a break. Itās not random. Itās pure messaging to ourselves, uh, Tarot and all the rest of it. And I love traditions that have been there for 8,000 years. Weāre going to talk about it. Cause you use, you do, you do this formula for a piece with Tarot cards that drives me crazy, but often told me it, speaking of what you had spoken to, uh, just a moment ago, when one gets kind of focused, the focus becomes quite, uh, extravagant. And was that for you? You really got into constructing this piece around Tarot.
S: Oh, yeah, I tend to, this tends to be a theme that I, if I hit on something thatās been very useful for me, um, mentally and psychologically, spiritually, I tend to write a piece about it. So thatās what the Oracle, the Oracle tended to be Tarot. I fell, fell onto, um, as a way to deal with my anxiety and it really, luckily, I had a therapist at the time who was open to the idea of me exploring my subconscious through the Tarot cards.
D: Itās about this idea of finding oneself, of reveling in these discoveries, uh, you know, and so is there any, can you give me a, um, what a topography of when, where, if even you feel now, like who you are, you know what I mean? How, what, what trajectory, where did you arrive? Have you arrived yet?
S: Um, well, definitely starting roughly a little less than a year ago when I finally did those, um, screenings for autism, like is when everything really started clicking and, and I did a lot of reading and, and, um, researching and, and finding others like me, you know, um, and it just helped click, you know, uh, it helped make, help me make sense of who I am and why I am the way I am.
Um, so often, especially throughout my whole life, um, I would be upset that I didnāt seem to be like everybody else. Even as a teacher, I mean, one of my favorite compliments from a student of mine was Iām the quirkiest teacher on campus. And I wear that like a badge. You know, I donāt teach like other teachers teach. I donāt think like other people think, and Iāve learned that thatās okay. Thereās nothing wrong with me. Um, that diversity is a great thing.
D: So now weāre going to deal with the, uh, the product of your, uh, satisfactions, although this is, letās see, 2023. I know these are recorded over a rather large span of time.
S: Maybe, uh, yeah, about five years or so.
D: So in other words, I guess what now has me curious is feeling where you are feeling now. Do you see, do you hear, see things in your focus on this CD?
S: I do actually. Um, the CD actually came about simply by virtue of, um, the way the economy works in the music recording industry and classical music, et cetera, where we just recorded piece by piece by piece as we could, um, and then finally had enough and say, Hey, letās put together an album, you knowā¦
D: And then letās figure out how to pay for it. Thatās what everybody watching this knows all about. Itās not like it [just] happens.
S: Exactly. Uh, so now, like I said, especially after these past several months, I look at the CD and I do really see it as if itās sort of a culmination of my past 15 years or so, um, because all the pieces have been written, I think the earliest one was. Well, I think āRoses and Liliesā was what, like 2012 or something like that. Um, 2013, maybe.
D: Oh, well, weāll find it.
S: I donāt remember.
D: Why did you use the word, āShardsā?
S: My husband picked it. He, he actually made up the title Ayre of Grievances too. He comes up with great titles. We thought about āShardsā because there are pieces like Dark Glass Sinfonia, so glass and, and breaking, uh, Wabi-Sabi is sort of like the fractal nature of life. And so you see shards of glass reflecting, reflecting different things, um, basically itās supposed to be sort of the fragmentations of personality and life and spirituality.
D: Thatās a good definition here. I was, I was expecting, uh, the, as I told you, I was expecting a wild ride. And by the way, everybody knows it isnāt, itās absolutely a magnificent recording of simply superb music. This is what just blew me away.
In a way, this text thatās on your CD tells us how fresh the CD is. So itās been put together. Youāve done that. Itās been five years. Youāre there. And then itās like, son of a gun.
āOne inherent trait I possess is finding my emotional fulfillment through the active, creative manipulation of music.ā And this fascinates me. Iām, Iām not a fix the watch kind of guy. I donāt get into the little details. Iām, Iām the conductor. Iām the, you know, I want the big pastel, you know, horses crossing the plains or something. You know, does that speak to your autism in a way, the focus?
S: I think so. The hyper fixation. I mean, there are times when Iām working on a piece that if my husband wasnāt there to remind me, Iād forget to eat, you know, Iāll just be like focused on these patterns and what else can I do with them? And, and, oh, that sounds really cool. Let me try this. Letās see.
D: And you say, āIām not, Iām not seeking to impose specific emotions on listeners.ā Thatās something thatās very important, āā¦but rather to facilitate a deeper connection with their inner selves.ā Now, Iām not quite sure what kind of, what kind of a labyrinth you just, you know, created with those words. āIām not seeking to impose specific emotions on listenersā yet, āI would like them to get in touch with their deeperā¦ā you know, you know what I mean, youāre clever, arenāt you?
S: Well, thatās a question I get a lot is, well, how do you want the audience to feel? Even, even composition teachersā¦ āHow do you want them to feel?ā And, and I think thatās another part of my autism. I relate to emotions differently than some other people do from what I can tell. Um, I, for me, the emotion and joy comes from the patterns. And so thatās what it is for me. Um, you know, it can be a completely atonal piece and if the patterns are cool then Iām getting such delight out of it. Uh, but for other people that might not be the case and I totally recognize that. So Iām hoping through my music, even though I might find joy in places they wonāt, um, that theyāll still find something that they can resonate with.
D: Oh, that was very well, well, spracht and I can only agree with you because as I think I mentioned to you and probably everybody else and probably about three times already by now, but that was the shock. This music is just simply gorgeous. And I was expecting a few more āshardsā, something expecting something, something a little, little more fractious, if you will.
The first piece on the, on the CD is Ayre of Grievances. I love the spelling. I presume clever, uh, you know, and, and, uh, awfully medieval or something. For viola, violin, and flute. Itās from 2020. So thatās a bad year. Oh my God.
S: Hence the grievances.
D: Hence the grievances is right. Uh, composed during the worldwide COVID epidemic. And you and Iāve talked about it. People are not yet clear how profoundly we as a planet of human beings and animals have been affected. This is going to take another half dozen years if we donāt have World War Three somewhere in between to sort it out. So itās a, this was a big thing. And the biggest thing in my life, maybe, uh, to go through. So, Ayre of Grievances, and, uh, and, you know, you set us up with all the frustrations, fear, sorrow, and anger, and Iām going, Oh, canāt wait.
And I put it on. And itās absolutely gorgeous. I totally did not expect it. Hereās a bit of my stream of consciousness, totally not expecting suchā¦ well, tonality. Itās wonderful already. Tense, beautifully crafted, thoroughly contemporarily classical. I mean, itās, itās totally accessible. And I, again, I almost want to spit when I say that word, but I think itās okay now to use that, to create accessible music, um, things get a little crazy and frustrated.
You mentioned in your program notes, thereās that frustration and you describe it very well. How, although in my case, I just went comatose and just stared out the windows for two years and allowed the checks to come in. Cause I was a freelancer unemployed and boy, the money was better than Iāve ever received. Thank you, Uncle Sam, but, but so I didnāt really experience a whole lot of frustration. I just sort of couldnāt believe what was going on for about two years.
In other words, there is a narrative to this piece, Ayre of Grievances. Um, but I think it, you know, it is much more than the sum of its narrative is what Iām trying to say. Uh, tonalities are altogether satisfying throughout the piece.
Go, give me an overview. What was this about for you?
S: During the, during the lockdowns for me, it was frustrating. Well, becauseā¦ guy, giving three hour lectures on zoom, I never want to do that again. Oh my gosh. Not being able to see anybody, not being able to see family. Um, that was really frustrating, but at the same time, because I wasnāt able to play live concerts, like I had been, um, it gave me a chance to sit down and really think about who I am.
Um, up until that point, it was very much, oh, Iām a major violinist and a composer and a teacher at all at once.
D: Donāt forget violaā¦ and viola too.
S: Yes. I love the viola. Um, but then I came to realize. I really much prefer writing, uh, and recording. Uh, so I, I allowed myself to let go of the, the things that maybe didnāt bring me quite as much joy. So when things did open back up, Iām, Iām being more careful to balance my life, uh, with what really brings me more joy and less stress, hopefully. Um, thatās, thatās what that piece really sort of represented is it was frustrating. It was lonely. I was angry at the world. Um, but at the same time, there was some beauty in there and some peace.
And, um, and I just love the interaction of the three parts. Theyāre both, theyāre all three very independent, but they speak together and sometimes theyāre arguing with each other. Sometimes theyāre singing with each other and supporting each other. And, um, I just really liked that intimacy of the work.
D: Well, that whole narrative thing about what youāre very good, uh, you know, voices, uh, having discussions between each other, but I found, and I may sound like Iām an idiot or something, but when I saw that viola, violin, flute, I told you earlier, I thought, I remember thinking thatās going to be tricky, you know, that the flute doesnāt get lost, and all of that works beautifully. And that is not about, you know, microphones. Itās about the way you wrote the piece. Using those three instruments. So, so beautifully. And later you use instruments in the most magical way.
S: Yeah, we actually debuted it during the pandemic where I recorded the violin and viola part. And then I recorded a friend of mine playing the flute part and we just did one of those YouTube stitched videos where we stitched our videos together. That was the thing.
D: Yeah. Am I pronouncing it reasonably close? āDodecaFunkyā And of course weāre playing, playing with, uh, dodeca cacophony or something. You can fill me in on that. Thereās all this funny stuff going on. Thatās all inside stuff for musicians.
Itās for flute and piano from 2015. I think you mentioned this might be the earliest piece, maybeā¦
S: āOf Roses and Liliesā, I actually wrote the original piece for voice and piano in like the early aughts. But then I went back and fleshed it out and sort of made it fuller.
D: So then you know, the early aughts, I love that. So DodecaFunky, uh, flute and piano. I want to tell everybody out there thatās looking for a repertoire. This is a beauty. This is a recital beauty. A funky solo for flute with piano accompaniment, this intense and spastic work. Is that me or you?
S: I think itās me.
D: I think it was you. So itā¦ āexploits various manipulationsā. Oh, here you go. Yeah, it is youā¦ āof a 12 tone row (dodecaphony).ā Iām supposed to be a musician and I couldnāt care less how itās pronounced or even what it is these days. Itās just the serial melody to a backdrop, et cetera, et cetera. But the point of, oh, this is why itās so cute. A hard bop and swing and, uh, and stuff. Itās just a delicious piece. And itās, itās aggressive in its funky way. I say about the opening, while the piano adds to the delightful confusion with various playful styles, a pause and it starts to get feisty. Uh, now I donāt know where I am in the piece, but now some casual virtuoso boogie woogie, boogie funky, uh, itās a delight.
Itās kind of a series of descriptive tableau. Am I closer? Cause I love dance. I, you know, I reviewed dance a lot and these are like little tableau. Itās wonderful to the max. Should be, uh, on programming all over the place. Itās a beauty.
Tell me, tell me, what do you think? What do you think of this?
S: I love this piece. It just makes, it makes me giggle.
D: Itās just a charm. Beautiful. Itās so cute.
S: Thank you, thank you.
D: Again, if you, youāll forgive me the accessibility word. This is irresistible. Of course, you know what Iām trying to say?
S: Iām glad you like it. That one actually took a little bit of inspiration from Bernstein. Um, I, I love, uh, I was studying his symphony, Age of Anxiety. Oh, and I love how he merged, well, he mergedā¦
D: By the way, you know, Iām a conductor. Uh, and I know all three of those symphonies very, very well. Iāve never conducted them because theyāre too hard. āJeremiahā I could conduct. That one makes sense. Uh, the, the age of anxiety for piano and orchestra is unbelievable, but itās also unbelievably difficult to conduct, you know? And then Kaddish, he wrote the original and then tore it all to pieces and stuff. So, but anyway, I just want, Iām so glad somebody also has studied [those works]. Anyway, excuse me.
S: Thatās okay. Uh, but yeah, I really loved the idea of merging modernist, modernistic tendencies as Bernstein would say, um, with jazz and other accessible popular genres. And so thatās what I did with this flute piece is I took a 12 tone row and it is an authentic 12 tone row, but I, you could say I cheated, I cheated a little bit because I used transpositions. So what I would do is itās still the same row, but I would transpose fragments of it to places that I liked it, where it fit better.
D: Arnold [Schoenberg] is turning into his grave.
S: Well, this is true. Ah but see, Stravinsky did it first. So, you know, letās blame him.
Itās still, it still has the same intervallic structures. Um, but then I back it up, with that really jazzy, different, like you say, different tableaus of different jazzy styles to kind of increase theā¦
D: Itās a great dance pieceā¦
S: Thatād be fun.
D: In other words, thereās lots of possibilities.
Okay. Weāre going to move on.
āOf Roses and Liliesā, this is for soprano, piano, soprano recorder, which I donāt think I hear very often used in these kinds of chamber pieces. And itās a perfect color. English hornā¦ what got into you ?ā¦and womenās chorus. And then the, are there strings there? I have this question.
S: String orchestra.
D: String orchestra, because I didnāt, you know, I didnāt see it in the, in the brief and itās from 2013, so weāre getting closer to, to the bottom of the stack here. Tell us about it.
S: This oneās a really fascinating piece for me. I, like I said, I had first written it many, many, many, several decades ago. And this was writtenā¦
D: Donāt be so hard on yourselfā¦Itās only been 10 yearsā¦
S: But the original piece for just soprano and piano was written, like I said, in the late nineties or early aughts, um, this was when I was still with my very Christian family, um, yeah, there you go. And so I fell in love with the song of Solomon and I thought, why donāt I write quick snippets of the song of Solomon and put it together as sort of a love song. And so I did. And, um, eventually just another like 10 years or so down the road, Iād said, you know what, I really love this piece. Iām going to flesh it out. So, um, I took the original just two parts and added the strings and added the color of the soprano recorder and the English horn, um, and, you know, added the womenās chorus as sort of this almost Greek chorus kind of response thing.
So itās a very, itās a very different piece. Uh, itās a very dramatic kind of theater-esque, drama-esque kind of, uh, kind of a feel.
D: And you donāt use the word romantic. It reeks of romanticism. I see in my notes there, a rich tapestry of sound and a highly romantic tonal aesthetic. I was not ready for that.
S: Well, actually, uh, every, everybody donāt hate on me, but I actually recorded it myself. So itās only, itās only two microphones with, uh, the soloist, Claire is one of my best friends and she teaches at Azusa. So she was able to grab us a classroom. And so I recorded with the two microphones, her and another good friend of mine, the pianist, Lydia. Um, and at the time we werenāt sure if I was just going to put together a digital background to it and like release it online or something. But, you know, this CD was coming to the, coming toward finishing and I was like, you know, this would be really awesome if we can get the rest of it recorded.
So I, yeah, I took two more sessions. I got the strings and the winds together for one session. Uh, and then I finally got the womenās chorus together for a session.
D: So that makes sense too. Very hard undertaking just in terms of production.
S: Yeah, itās such a good, such a good learning experience. And again, so many of my dear, dear friends are on that recording and itās just, it was just so special to me.
D: Itās something else. And I hope you understand what Iām saying here, because we want to get this, these pieces performed. Itās a beauty. Itās very accessible. So it doesnāt sound terribly hard to put together. What do you think? Am I all wet? I donāt know, but just, it seemed very, it seemed to just flow pretty freely.
S: Hereās theā¦ I would say, hereās the danger with my music. And, um, especially with this piece, this has happened before. There have been pianists who think they can sight read it and they suddenly quit. Itās like, oh, I canāt sight read this. So this is something my very first composition teacher warned me about is that my music seems really easy. But then you dig into it and there are some little quirks in there and some tricks that you might not be expecting. So as long as you knowā¦
D: It shouldnāt be a big problem. If you know what I mean, so I think Iām okay in saying that I think itās not like, you knowā¦
S: Itās not terrible.
D: Yeahā¦[not] terribly virtuosic. And that is, that is to say this should go off the shelf and into performance and rehearsal. And thatās exactly what I see. Nothing but college, college ensemble. Because of the difficulty of getting, you know, professionals together in that kind of complex, you know, but, but, so I found it really very, veryā¦a flowing, lovely, entirely tonal journey. The soprano recorder is charming. Your writing is absolutely first-class. You handle transitions of mood with smooth aplomb. Boy, that came out of my head. Geez. The piece soars with beauty. Your compositional savvy and skill are beyond question.
S: Thank you.
D: Letās see. Now this is āThe Oracle,ā for violin, cello, flute and piccolo, clarinet, piano. Thatās from 2016. Go ahead. Tell us, but the bottom line is you constructed this thing from random throws of tarot cards. Go.
S: Exactly. Okay. Soā¦
D: Aleatoric indeed!
S: Uh, I really, like I said, this was the time in my life when I had just really started to latch on to tarot as a means of exploring my own subconscious.
D: Which is correct, by the way. Letās make sure. Exactly what itās supposed to be. No, let the self-conscious speak to us.
S: Exactly. I like to think of it, itās like a mirror for myself. Itās a way for me to talk to myself when sometimes Iām having trouble understanding my brain. So, uh, I really love tarot and I wrote this when I first really started getting into it. And so what I did is, um, I had an opportunity. It was like a call for scores for this ensemble. Uh, and so I was like, this will be fun. Why donāt I use that as an excuse to try it out?
So, and I wanted to do sort of a homage to John Cage by using an aleatoric kind of method. And so tarot seemed like the perfect way to do it. So I set up, um, I think it was five different spreads of 10 cards. I think I did like, um, some kind of a sacred pyramid, uh, spread for each of those. Um, and what I did is I, I assigned certain, you know, in tarot, the different suits represent different aspects of life and personality.
So you have the cups, which is emotion. Um, you have, you know, the, uh, the pentacles, uh, the pentacles are, uh, earth, uh, and, um, material wellbeing and reality and such. Uh, so what I did is I attached each of the instruments to those suits. The, uh, violin was fire, uh, or wands. Uh, the, uh, the cello was water or cups and the, uh, the clarinet was earth and the flute, of course, was air. And then for the piano, uh, I made the piano, the tree of life itself. Uh, because I like to read tarot from a Kabbalistic tree of life sort of interpretation.
D: Youāre starting to get over my head. I thought I was with you pretty well, but Kabbalistic something, somethingā¦with a tree of life.
S: So Jewish mysticism, basically. So on the tree of life, each of the cards have their place on that tree. And the higher up the tree you are, the closer to the divine source you are. And then you travel down the tree and experience various phases of life and emotion, et cetera, until you get to the bottom, which is material reality. Everything youāve experienced becomes real. Uh, and then you cycle back to the top, back to the divine source again.
So for the piano, um, when I had a spread that, that spoke of being closer to the divine source, I had the piano playing up in its higher registers. And then as it got closer to the bottom, to the ground, the piano went down. So the higher, if you hear the piano going, noodling up really high, thatās up at the divine source of things. If you hear the piano kind of in the middle, thatās sort of where balance and harmony are. If the piano is down in the basement, thatās down in material reality.
And then in the meantime, you have all the other instruments that are reflecting on emotion or, um, you know, or, or thought, or power
D: ā¦and character that may be interpretedā¦in countless ways. Thatās the beauty of the idea of randomness, the beauty of the order, if you will, of randomness, that even random events will speak to us.
S: Exactly.
D: Once in a while, I really want to play an album, uh, for other people in my, you know, over a dinner or something. This is one of them. Um, what an amazing chamber piece. I say this is, uh, this long cello obbligato, then into the klezmer aesthetic I call, uh, with, with all of that playing. Now I understand the cabalistic, if you will, right. Uh, meaning to it all. Uh, but the klezmer, uh, aesthetic is, is clearly there. The, and of course the Oracle is a Jew, right? I say the Oracle is a Jew? Question mark.
A wonderful transition, transitional writing. And you know what I mean? Making segments and, and, uh, themes make sense. That transition material is very, very important to get it right. [Your] compositional savvy is top notch. I think Iāve been saying that, but the piece is a wonderful narrative. Itās complex. Itās a complex narrative. Um, and as you have just described the instruments are characters.
S: Theyāre, theyāre the suits of the, of the cards, but they do have sort of, they evoke their sort of, uh, certain characteristics about it.
D: Okay. Thatās much more complex. Thank you. That clarifies.
This is quite a journey. So, and, uh, and then I say, um, a jaunty section now as CODA, I assume thatās a CODA. Uh, still a fun ending. I love it. I donāt think you can get any more, you know, any, any better than that.
Okay. Next is, is, uh, Wabi-Sabi, this, uh, uh, the aesthetic and metaphysical ideals that Japanese Wabi-Sabi encapsulates. Tell us about Wabi-Sabi. Is it animist or something? Is it part of their religion? Animist religion?
S: It can be. Uh, Iām trying to remember where it historically started. It actually started with monochromatic Chinese drawings and then the Japanese sort of took that ideal and enhanced it. A lot of people think of a Zen garden when they think of Wabi Sabi.
D: I see what you mean. Now I understand exactly what you mean. Even the artwork, strokes, you know, just very spare strokes.
S: Yeah. The tea ceremony. Um, everything about that ceremony is part of their Wabi Sabi aesthetic and metaphysical ideals.
D: Iām trying to remember this [for] parties.
S: Simplicity is, is a major part of it, but it goes beyond that. This, and this is what the string quartet throughout the three movements sort of encapsulates is that, uh, the beginning that, thatā¦you know, in the west the idea of nothing is like zero, thereās nothing there. Itās very stark, but in Wabi Sabi ideas, um, nothing is full of potential. Thereās a lot that could be there, but isnāt there yet.
D: Thatās so profound.
S: Um, and then you go through, especially at the beginning of the first movement, sort of these random particles where the players can choose how they want to play it.
D: I understand that. Weāre talking about the first movement Emergence, what have you just said that the players have some choice and they have choices.
S: So, so each of the players have a collection of notes that they can choose from to play. Uh, and they do it in different ways. Like the cello trills all their notes, but they can choose how they want to trill and how fast they want to trill and when they want to come in, uh, and things like that. Um, until they finally come together in the middle of the first movement and it sort of builds from there. So the idea is like that of creation of these particles coming into space and slowly merging together to become something.
D: And by the way, this sounds like an homage to Stockhausen, you know?
S: Yeah, absolutely.
D: Another great. Distanceā¦ these distant soundsā¦ I remember performance, you know, Stockhausen, and it all comes together.
S: And then, and then Evolution is a short, itās intentionally a short little two minute burst because thatās where everything is kind of locked in.
D: This is Evolution.
S: This is the, the cells are coming together and creating fish that are coming out of the water and, you know, becoming man. Um, et cetera. Possibility.
D: Alive with possibility, yeah. ā¦Nothingness itselfā¦
S: Yeah, exactly. Um, and then it gives way to Entropy, uh, and Entropy starts with a very strict structure. Uh, funnily enough, I wasnāt sure compositionally how I wanted to go about the third movement, but I was in the middle of teaching about isorhythm in one of my classes. So Iām like, Hey, I can do isorhythm with this. Thatād be fun. So it starts out very strict, um, but then gets really complex and starts falling apart. And again, thatās the idea of returning back to nothingness. Everythingās falling apart.
Uh, and, and thatās the idea of, um, the idea that you, um, sometimes the best course of action is to decide to do nothing, you knowā¦
D: I think you have just described an exact, uh, arc in the, they come together. Iām looking at Emergence. The first one builds quite satisfyingly. Uh, the construct is fascinating and sensible to the intellect, I say to myself. And of course, if there, if you donāt get it off the ground, intellectually from the beginning, youāre in troubleā¦ Ok, Evolution. Um, I love this, uh, I call it a flowing sea sort of opening. Or whatever that vibe could be. Anything, forget sea, whatever that undulating flowing thingā¦so mesmerizing. Again, wonderful quartet writing.
Iām going to have to stop using this word accessible, but thatās the whole idea to get these performed. And thatās exactly to be well written and also to be a happy time for an audience. Give me a break. And I, and hereās the thing about Evolution that itās, uh, utterly accessible to the listener, though the subject, listening, but I think I got it. Although the subject matter may have sub-basements. Now a walking cello fits that, that walking cello thing. Itās wonderful to keep the piece moving and, and, uh, energetic. Um, quite a narrative.
S: Itās like a little metronome marking I have in the, uh, the second movement is āLike dancing molecules.ā
D: Oh!
S: Kind of the spinning, whirlingā¦
D: I might have to dream about that tonight. And the third movement, if you will, Entropy. Itās such a nice, uh, I, I, do I hear a little fugueā¦? I wantedā¦ the stream of consciousness thingā¦fuguetto. You know what I mean? That opening is a, is it a genuine, but itās a fuguetto, right?
S: Yeah, itās, um, it starts out exactly as a canon. Then what happens is that each time the line comes back, uh, I either in diminution or augmentation. Uh, so I, I, like I said, if you see the score, um, I start doing crazy little sub meters within each of the parts just to help, just to help the players keep, keep time with each other, but yeah, thatās part of the unraveling part is they start very much together and then they start in like ratios of two to one or one to two, but yeah, then it starts getting into weird ratiosā¦
D: ā¦because I think I wondered about those, those asymmetrical collisionsā¦ A slightly dysfunctional intentional section. Iām toward the end here of pizzās.
S: Well, the very ending, I go back to the beginning idea where the, each player has a selection of notes. They can pizz. whenever they want to. So each performance should be a little different than each other.
D: So the end of entropy, they go back to this idea and they can even change their mind about it.
S: Exactly.
D: Stockhausen, heās smiling.
āNevermore,ā this major Sonata, I think for viola and piano from 2019 to 2021. Nevermore for viola and piano, also a subtitle of a Gothic Suite, so delightful, itās an absolutely magnificent Sonata for viola and piano. Itās just absolutely, itās so American, because weāre talking about Edgar Allan Poe and each movement is after one of his most famous pieces. But you have, I feel very powerfully about American composers choosing American subjects. The Raven, Annabelle Lee, the Telltale Heart.
S: Actually, Charlotte Goode, the violist on this recording, is actually another one of my bestest friends. And she is also a gothic nut and a fellow autistic. And she just, she was like, oh my gosh, we need to collaborate. We need to do this for viola. And Iām like, yes. So I started out with the Raven, you know, and she debuted that at a recital. And then I was like, okay, we need to come up with two other, you know, two other movements to finish it out. And the thing I love about the recording of this, again, this is so her, the viola part is so her, the subject matter is so her, and then I was lucky enough to be able to fly out with her to Boston to have her record it for PARMA. Soā¦that day I went to Salem after we recorded it. So it was perfect.
D: You mean, the Witch Town or Salem, Oregon?
S: No, no, no, the Witch Town, yeah, Salem, Massachusetts.
D: So Poe inspired you to go to the seat of evil.
S: Exactly. It was so good.
D: Well, what I have to say is here, I worked on looking at the first movement. First of all, a fascinating piano introduction that really nails the interest immediately because it hints at mysteries, then itās followed by the violaās intensely Poe-ish colors and temperament, so congrats to your friend. Itās a beauty, again, of narrative imagination, a wonderful piece of writing for viola. It is virtuosic.
S: Yeah, it is. I wonāt play it on my viola. Iāll let somebody else do it. Iām not that good.
D: Well, everything a violist looks for in a recital piece, you know, and itās romantic, there are romantic bits in here, some hair-raising twilight zone intervals between notes, if that makes any sense, thrilling, kooky, mysterious, as was the man, nice new ideaā¦ that roiling keyboard stuff toward the end of the piece, does that make any sense? Under viola, that middle and low register as it goes.
āAnnabelle Lee.ā Itās gorgeous, that movement is just gorgeous.
S: So beautiful, itās one of my absolute favorites, just, and the poem, too, is just absolutely, it really struck me.
D: It brings you to tears, really, that poem.
S: It really does. I really wanted to capture that complete childlike innocence, just absolutely purest childlike innocent love of a little boy and a little girl. And then the angels cruelly take her away from him, you know, and just that drama.
D: And thatās the true story, isnāt it? Doesnāt he marry her, his wife, when she was 15, and then did she die? I canāt quite remember.
S: I donāt remember. Iād have to look it up.
D: We just missed the good parts that neither of us can remember. Anyway, what Iām trying to say is, Annabelle Lee speaks to a very personal experience.
S: I do know this was his last poem that he wrote before he died. Thatās also a very haunting little tidbit. So, yeah, I love this movement so much. It actually, it was the hardest to record, too, because itās deceptively simple. But itās because itās kind of like Mozart in that way, where itās so simple and exposed that the violist has to be really careful and really in tune. So it took us a little bit longer to do this one.
D: Nice. Yeah, itās a beautiful reading. I call it magical writing. Itās exceptionally sensitive.
The Tell-Tale Heart: the intro, sufficiently terrifying. Very imaginative character development. Itās exactly creepy enough to fit the narrative, because it is that narrative, the pulsing, the clicking, and the floorboardsā¦ Then the beginning of real paranoia. I mean, you describe this tale very well.
S: Actually, I decided the best way to put it together was to take the story apart and make each of the sections of music a section of the story. So itās probably the most narratively accurate of the three movements.
D: And that makes good sense to me.
S: Yeah, and in the music, each of the section headings has a little quote from the story. So you can kind of tell where you are in the story. But yeah, the idea of just. I wanted the opening theme that the viola starts playing is supposed to be sort of the love theme that the narrator has for his master.
āI loved the old manā¦It was his eye!ā ā¦you know, so itās this really creepy. Itās a love song, but itās twisted. Itās got something off.
So thatās where it opens. And then from there, then I get into the part where itās for seven nights. He he peeks in at the bedroom. And so that section is like in seven four or something like that. It has odd. Itās asymmetrical. So, again, it feels a little off, you know, a little bit of the heartbeat taps and then, you know, stuff like that. And then little answering in the pianoā¦ And then you hear him murder him.
D: I call it shades of the shower scene in Psycho.
S: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
D: Brava, I say after that.
S: ā¦yeah, thank you. Yeah. And then you just get, like you say, the paranoia as the cops wonāt leave. But the narrator keeps hearing the heartbeat and he canāt get away from it. And he just has to give up.
D: And indeed, itās an internal conflict. Yeah, thatās the order of the soundscape. Itās kind of this internal conflict that becomes, you know, insupportable, disturbingly deliberate. And itās so well done, well done.
So thatās a beautiful sonata. And as I mentioned, here it is. Itās a, itās a viola sonata. Itās, itās tough. Well, you know, at a certain level, you know, you almost want it to be. So itās not inaccessible at all. It has a it has a tremendous connection to America and American history and American literature. It is a beautiful sonata and it sounds so beautiful. The writing is so gorgeous.
So take note, everybody. Nevermore for viola and piano.
And then now the last, the grand finale on the CD, The Dark Glass Sinfonia: We see through a glass darkly. For orchestra from 2017 built upon an integrated setā¦Oh, here you go again.
S: I love patterns!
D: ā¦thatās why I pulled it. Because in all of my life in the arts and even at college, these things never came up in my experience. āBuilt,ā she says, confident, ābuilt upon an integrated set of hexachordal formulae.ā End quote. I say to myself, please explain. You will, then you go on: āFree atonality with modal harmonyā¦In doing so, it is meant to represent the enigmatic and ongoing emotional flux of the soul.ā
S: This is anotherā¦it started out as just a love affair with patterns. And one thing, Iām not a major post-tonalist. You can tell from the accessibleness of my music. But I do love some of the number patterns that come about from, you know, post-tonal exercises. And hexachordal combinatoriality is one of my favorite ideas. I just love saying it. Hexachordal combinatoriality.
D: Yeah, I bet when you have students, they just sort of collapse.
S: Yeah, Iām like, OK, learn how to say it, you can impress all of your friends.
D: But then again, formulae is ratherā¦
S: ā¦Itās very pompous soundingā¦itās basically itās built upon the 12-tone ideal, but it breaks up the 12 tones into six tones, hexachords. So each of the hexachords has its own unique intervallic character to it. And so in the same way that you can take kind of the same way where I cheated with DodecaFunky, where I took segments of it and like transposed it, itās kind of like that, but I did less cheating. Hexachords kind of do their own cheating because you can take one part of the tone row and then take the second half of it and flip it or reverse it. Or, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then if you break them down into numbers, you can add them up into cool combinations and things like that. So thatās what this was. This piece was sort of a play on that and seeing what I could do with it. And thatās how I developed the main themes.
You really hear it come out, especially in the little woodwind stuff throughout the top. Thatās really where it shines. But it really is woven into it.
D: The row shines?ā¦
S: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
D: Well, you must have been in heaven putting this piece together.
S: It was very, very fun. And again, and I donāt know how my brain does this, but what starts out with a whole bunch of numbers and patterns usually comes out as something really lovely that I continue to love listening to.
D: Well, guess what? Thatās exactly the whole point of the genius of autism. You just exactly described what weāve been kind ofā¦that autism is, is just different.
S: You know, you know, thatās another thing that shines through with this orchestral piece, too, is that one of the comments sometimes I get from other people is, oh, why canāt you just have the instruments all stacked up on top of each other? You know, why canāt they all play at once? And Iām like, I just donāt like that. I like to have the layers. Somebodyās always doing something. And so thereās kind of a medievalness to it, you know, going back to that old polyphony idea. But then Iāll integrate it with these numbers and patterns. And I just love seeing it layer.
D: Speaking of layering, did I hear I see in my notes here. Is there any kind of pyramid that you constructed a sound pyramid somewhere in the beginning of that piece? Or is it a stupid word?
S: No itās not stupid. I like to call it a waterfall, whereā¦
D: Yeah, ā¦.I got the idea of what you were creating there.
S: Yeah. The hexachordal pattern is there. But what I do is I pass it starting from the top and have it kind of trickle down like that.
D: So pyramid is not quite the right way of describing it. But I was hearing a very specific concept. And of course, thinking pyramid, Iām describing it as from the bottom up. But youāve just described it as from top to trickle down, if you will.
Letās seeā¦ There was a lovely little brass tune. Iām hearing that Iām hearing cinematic moments. Of course, itās an orchestral piece. Iām sure you really got your teeth into that one.
Letās see, lovely wind section work, as weāve discussed, nicely orchestrated. Well, itās brilliant and wonderful and very accessible and a beautiful, beautiful orchestral piece of what? I canāt remember. Seven minutes orā¦
S: Yeah, itās only like seven minutes or so, which I have found, again, economically and just competition wiseā¦
D: Thatās exactly right.
S: People like shorter, shorter pieces.
D: Thatās kind of what we ask, because then the next question is how? Because Iām again thinking collegiate orchestras. And then letās see that as weāve discussed, thereās that thematic return, you know, that the whole thing does a perfect arc. So there you go.
S: I just really love the very, very ending of it. When I first put it together and to me, it evoked sort of almost this organ, this organ like texture with. I just love the resonanceā¦ T
D: That section with percussion. Thatās toward the end. I see more complicated in narrative in terms of just the construct of the piece. Definitely descriptive, martial, perfectly accessible. Itās a perfect piece for a college orchestra if itās in that sphere of capability.
S: Yeah. ā¦that little fast march like scherzo thing. I kind of had a like a like a Russian, Russian romantic vibe almost or like early 20th century Russian vibe, you know, almost like kind of Shostakovich-esque, you knowā¦
D: Each question mark was starting to rise out of my head there, the Shostakovich-ish.
S: Yeah, exactly.
D: What a great talk weāve had. And I think just anybody could pick up that the world of our profession, of our music making, is the world at large. I mean, we speak to the wonderful, fascinating world around us. Thatās the whole idea of being a creative person.
So, again, wonderful chat with composer Sarah Wallin Huff. And weāre talking about your 2023 Navona release. Itās contemporary classic chamber music for diverse instrumental combinations. Youāve heard this before. Itās called Shards. Donāt worry, anybody. Itās fine. And wonderful pieces that as weāve discussed that are chamber works and then, of course, the orchestral piece at the very end.
But this is music that should be heard a lot more. And itās not off the top of the charts of virtuosity. But, itās just good, solid, wonderful music-making with enough virtuosity to keepā¦Why did I say those of us who are giftedā¦busyā¦you know what Iām trying to sayā¦ Iām gonna shut my mouth up here.
Anyway, great fun chatting with you.
S: Thank you so much. I really Iām really flattered, you know, that you reached out.
D: Well, Iām flattered that I heard what I heard. Iāll tell you, because itās always a gamble. I just sort of pick up, pick up whatever. And I thought Iāve never heard of this thing. Well, who is this person and what is that stuff? And thatās got us started.
Itās been a tremendous treat and a really important and a very important CD youāve got. So, congratulations all around.
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