Lmst

@CursedSilicon @gettie mostly because #systemD (and it's competitiors) took all the right lessions:

Start less
Start more in parallel
Resolve dependencies to avoid waiting times

And basically everyone (#OpenRC, #Upstart, etc. Even #LaunchD [the #init for #macOS that is literally the SystemD but before SystemD and by Apple] and #SMF [#Sun's SystemD for #Solaris] did that to allow for boot times in secinds, not minutes…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo&t=12m17s

@BoydStephenSmithJr @dvandal @david_chisnall @strlcat

This reasoning is based upon a fallacious dichotomy. In the real history, Upstart existed and had a strong competing maintainership, to the level that the #Debian TC itself was nearly split down the middle on #RedHat/#Canonical lines, and the choice was *never* between van Smoorenburg init+rc and systemd.

It was between #Upstart and #systemd, the latter indeed being a reaction to the former, with #OpenRC as a late entrant.

@fabiscafe @okapi OFC @chesheer 's criticism is understandable on #FreeBSD given that #SystemD is inherenty focussed and intertwined with #Linux (just as it's Inspiration, #LaunchD, is intertwined with #macOS's Darwin/NeXTstep kernel).

The problem is after some hefty "init wars" with like #Upstart and others SystemD became the de-facto standard, and the "(statistical) rounding errors" of #BSD users got sidelined, in part because BSDs looked at that mess and went like "Nyet, SysVinit is fine!" and continued their fiddling around...

And sadly there's nothing they (or anyone else) could've done unless they had multiplied suddenly and being able to keepcthe old tech stack maintainable.

Similarly #Xorg is dying and there are already GPUs that only support #Wayland and #X11 apps get run using #XWayland.

OFC I wish for more diversity in solutions, but #Linux being #streamlined is what makes #portability across distros easier and boosted adoption as well as providing massive gains in solutions like #DXVK, #Proton and #Wine in general.

And TBH most "#TechIlliterates" aka. "#Normies" frankly don't give a shit what OS they use. All it needs to do is serve them their eMails and allow them to 'consoom themselbes happy' as in watching YouTube, Play games, etc.

@cstross

I enjoyed how spot-on you accidentally were. (-:

Interestingly, people still argue today (as you've probably seen in these threads) as if it were van Smoorenburg rc that was the other choice for Debian et al. back in 2014; which was in reality either Upstart or OpenRC. It's a very persistent erroneous dichotomy.

#systemd #Upstart #OpenRC

@cstross

Right more than you know in one respect; but wrong in another.

#systemd came from #RedHat, not Microsoft; and the upstart was not Linux but a software package from #Canonical that was literally named "Upstart". (There's a whole backstory about the copyright licence that Canonical initially granted.)

Amusingly, Windows NT's Service Controller, its WININIT, and its Session Manager are three distinct things; not like systemd's architecture at all.

#Upstart

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@nuintari @stefano no, it's not inherently bad because if #SysVinit and all the.otherbthings were fine, noone would've even considered adoping #systemd.
https://infosec.space/@kkarhan/112660144122509736

Claiming "it's #RHEL's fault" also goes way too short, cuz they - like #SUSE and #Canonical - do weird stuff all the time.

Unlike say #snap vs. #flatpak, there's a reason we have systemd and no say #upstart being adopted.

OFC you can get non-systemd distros and for #embedded applications, the tradeoff of "space" vs. "complexity reconfiguring" stuff does make even a classic init script sufficient (i.e. some #InternetOfShit device that isn't expected to constantly switch WiFi networks doesn't need a config more complex than the config
txt from #RaspberryPiOS)...

#DearHumanity

#MaybeChangeTheRules

#Upstart

#BloomsdayPartyInProgress

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vkap4GvyG4

@alexmurray @stgraber it's not that we can't it's that we don't want to. CLAs are terrible and we've never required one for any of our projects.

In a way CLAs are one (of many) reasons why #upstart never stood a chance against #systemd. Or look at the #hashicorp debacle.

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@JdeBP @RL_Dane @mos_8502 Indeed, it very much didn't. And it's very useful context for #systemd. Seeing systemd as a replacement for #upstart, which had already broadly replaced SysInitV, makes much more sense of the situation. It's not like upstart was any less "corporate" or anything (Canonical, Red Hat, Google). It's that in practice, it was really not good at tracking processes and often couldn't be relied on.

@vwbusguy @RL_Dane @mos_8502 There were such people, though. #upstart was seen as the new event-driven way of the future, and there were people who promoted it as such. The Debian Technical Committee was almost evenly split, moreover.

As I said in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19966762 , the event-driven notion didn't work out in practice.

@JdeBP @RL_Dane @mos_8502 It's also important to ask why the outrage for #systemd but not #upstart that had already replaced SysInitV in many #Linux distros, yet I never hear anyone arguing that upstart was better than systemd in any way.

https://upstart.ubuntu.com/