@mrmasterkeyboard @cesarpose I mean, #Xorg - like #SysVinit - both have severe issues that just ain't gonna be addressable under reasonable expectations re: hardware support, compatibility and software support.

• But there's a reason "Big Distros" and the community in general came to the conclusion that #Wayland and #SystemD are at worst 'necessary evils' and for the most part deliver a lot of quality-of-life features.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

There is no "#conspiracy" of #BigTech wanting to kill #X11 or even sabotage #Xlibre for that matter. It's just that some folks have trouble letting go and acknowledge that #Xserver is kept on "life support" as #Xwayland so people can run their 25+ year old #Windows games in #Wine without going apeshit.

• I mean, ask @fuchsiii about that effort, where she's basically "workarounding" wine devs by literally pulling a "#Steam compatibility layer" kind of trick and swapping "good known working" Wine versions in just before launching a game because that works for setups where you have one user playing one game at a time on one machine and where shuffling around files/symlinks is possible.

@fabiscafe @okapi espechally in the form of an interactive desktop...

• I could see it valid for multiple shell sessions, but #tmux & #screen cover that pretty well.

• If one has to login into different machines then chances are #aithentification is centralized anyway.

Needless to say #modernizations like #SystemD don't happen because people like #Poettering are "hobbyless", but because the preexisting status-quo (#SysVinit) was slow, inflexible and error-prone by strict linearity and non-parallelization.

• With a literal /etc/init file one can literally get a system to hang due to a mistake (i.e. certain call doesn't get invoked correctly), whereas on #SystemD (and competing solutions like #LaunchD on #macOS and #SMF on #Solaris) your desktop / laptop will continue to noot even if it doesn't have a network connection.

Not to mention as Benno Rice explained: 'Shit just gotmore dynamic!': We don't have that one big ass maingrame and serial terminals, instead we have laptops that may he carried around a campus or traveled with all day and that constantly switch between wireless and wired networks and have VPN tunnels open and whatnot...

@kkarhan @halva @ubuntu @opensuse

#SysVinit works well, and is a problem only if you care about booting time. That's not the case of everybody.
Anyway, lots of alternatives exist nowadays: runit, open-rc, s6, etc.
All these alternatives get the best of both worlds: they remain mainly script-based, and they are much faster than SystemV.

@halva +9001%

I've used @ubuntu 7.04 and @opensuse 10.2 and noone wants to go back to those ages when we had #WiFi problems, had to fiddle with #nVidia drivers and #AMD was just not an option!

• Same with #SystemD: #SysVinit is shit and everyone who thinks it's reasonable amto wait 5-15+ mins for a desktop to boot is even mire delusional than #Xorg fans wanting to cancel #Wayland!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

The simplicity of SysVinit is appealing. It's basically just a set of different scripts that you configure for different so called run levels (0 to 6).

I do see why systemd is taking over. Having a system that works the same over different distributions is also appealing.

#sysvinit #systemd #linux

Systemd seems to be taking over more and more and there's a specific sub project within LFS to use that as the main process started by the kernel.

However, the default docs for LFS use the old school SysVinit. I think I'll go with this to start with. Maybe it's even possible to have different GRUB configurations so I can start the kernel with different inits? E.g. have the option to boot with SysVinit OR systemd.

#lfs #systemd #sysvinit #linux

@tauon @radmin not really tho.

Have you ever had to deal with #SysVinit?

• #SystemD is at worst a "#NecessaryEvil" because #Linux evolved and the old systems that came before were neglected if not unmaintainable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

• That being said it's #OpenSource and you're free to not use it and go back to the basics of the /etc/init file...

I do so myself in my free time...

I have been a linux user for more than 20 years, and a Debian user for a good 15 years now. For the first time, I feel like something is off. systemd feels like a Frankenstein that does not belong. It makes the system feel brittle and vulnerable.

Perhaps some more reading is in order. But I am also starting to look into things like Devuan.

Thoughts? Interesting takes and links?

#linux #systemd #debian #devuan #sysvinit #openrc

@gettie @waifu I just think that's due to old programs refusing to change/noone fixing them to run on #Wayland.

• #Xorg is #EoL / dead and the quicker we get things transitioned over the better.

This isn't even a matter of convenience and speed like with #SystemD vs. #SysVinit but a matter of #deprecated APIs & ABIs…

• Just like #i386 support for #Linux got axed because it was way too painful to maintain and noone wanted to keep maintaining it!

Monkeying around with Devuan Linux (Excalibur) while absentmindedly listening in on a deployment bridge. Joys of not having 'root' on anything work related any more. Ha!

#Linux #Devuan #Excalibur #Debian #Systemd #init #sysvinit #runit #OpenRC

@ainmosni@social.ainmosni.eu All the people harping on how #systemd is better than #sysvinit seem to have forgotten there were alternatives to sysvinit already...

Devuan Linux Installation

https://video.fosshq.org/videos/watch/0d06e694-dd97-4c5d-93a4-1c8208bd3161

That systemd Thing: A Debate With No Ending

https://eggflix.foolbazar.eu/videos/watch/dd6ab9d5-1ef9-4c35-91fa-e0885a1bcf50

Ok fam, after about a week of being a complete and utter newbie ingesting tutorials about #Linux I think I am finally understanding two things: what distros are, and that for some reason my brain will correlate ANY technical topic with food.

Linux is ice cream
Linux families are particular flavors of ice cream
And like ice cream, there’s basically certain core flavors, many specific flavors, and always the potential to invent new flavors. The ice cream landscape seems to break out something like this to a newbie:

Vanilla - Debian; French Vanilla - Ubuntu; Vanilla Bean - LMDE
Chocolate - Red Hat; Chocolate Chip - Fedora; Chocolate chocolate chip - Alma;
Fruit, Strawberry - Arch; Fruit, Peach or Cherry or pretty much any other fruit - any other Arch
Caramel - Gentoo; Vanilla Caramel Swirl - Redcore
Neapolitan and Spumoni - When you do super custom stuff like make Ubuntu have rolling release distro using Arch’s package system with Gentoo’s OpenRC for the init system
Exotic, like cucumber or ranch or avocado - Everything else that isn’t one of the other big buckets like SUSE, Solus, Quirky, Zeroshell, Vine, etc.
Nuts - Slackware (I mean this in an affectionate way, butter pecan is my fav!)
Gelato - BSD
Chocolate Gelato - Solaris

Like ice cream, Linux can have toppings too:
Sauce - init systems; and some people hate chocolate sauce - systemd
Whipped cream. Yeah sure there’s different brands and differences in texture or flavor a bit, but they’re basically all doing the same stuff - Packaging
Cherry - the GUI. It’s only there for looks, you could absolutely eat the ice cream without it, but most diners expect it on their sundae

Distros - An ice cream sundae. All the things (flavor, toppings, what it’s served in) are presented to you at once. Oooor some of the more lean ones are more like an ice cream cone
Eating a pint of ice cream right outta the freezer container - CLI
Homemade ice cream maker - LFS

#Linuxnewbies #LinuxHumor #BSD #Debian #Gentoo #Slackware #Ubuntu #ArchLinux #SystemD #SysVinit

@darth What are the advantages of #sysvinit over #systemd? Or you picked it just from your familiarity with it and #devuan #linux

@centopus again, I consider this the other way around.

The whole #hate against #Rust is as absurd as the hate against #SystemD and #Wayland, because if #SysVinit and #Xorg were viable people would've fixed them.

And @AsahiLinux delivered results at neck-breaking speeds thx to #marcan & @lina ...

So, from my notes:

#voidlinux: symlink a service's name from /etc/sv/ to /var/service to enable a service then sv up & down will become available for that service.
#chimeralinux: dinitctl, kinda like systemctl
#devuan: update-rc.d <service> default to get it on the runlevels, then enable/disable to do fun things. Only do update-rc.d remove when the package is removed from the system.. Gotcha

#linux #freesoftware #opensource #foss #debian #sysvinit #dinit #musl #systemd

@freya @thermia I disagree because the preexisting stack was slow, inefficient, inflexible and had a shitload of issues to the point that noone wanted to fix it.

• If #SysVinit et. al. were good, noone would've switched to #SystemD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

Take that systemd (?)

｢ The biggest change in SysVinit 3.14 is overcoming the 127 character per line limit of inittab files that has been there for roughly the past three decades. With SysVinit moving forward, inittab lines can be up to 253 characters long... Those with really long inittab lines are really best off punting off that logic to a shell script that can then be called from the inittab ｣

https://www.phoronix.com/news/SysVinit-3.14-Released

#sysvinit #opensource